76: Listen to Yourself: A Conversation with Lara Downes
PART 2
with Lara Downes
Transcript (edited for length)
What are the lessons about life as a professional musician that you didn't learn in music school?
Can I say all of them?
Kellogg:
Yes, you can. You can say all of them.
Downes:
Can I say that? The only thing I remember because it just seems so it seems funny at the time, honestly, was one of my teachers who was concertizing heavily and we would meet as a class just for a few days a month to accommodate his schedule. He came into the room and he'd run out for a phone call. And I think it was something about like a last minute, you know, cancellation of something that he needed to do. And he made this sweeping proclamation, “You know, the most important thing that you all need to know is always have your passport with you in case you get a call that you have to, you know, jump on a plane.” And I was like, Okay, but there are like so many other things that come before that that we've never talked about, right?
So I think I'm probably like the test case of the person who knew nothing coming out of school, truly. And I think it was, you know, the school of hard knocks that taught me.
Kellogg:
You learned by doing.
Downes:
I’ve learned by doing. I mean, I'm so, I'm so happy now that, you know, conservatories and universities are putting things in place so that you don't walk out of school complete, like, deer in the headlights. But I still think no matter how many classes you have, you're going to learn by doing.
Kellogg:
What is one piece of career advice you wish someone had given you when you were young? That's such an obnoxious question! And such a good question!
Downes:
It's such a good question! Um... Well, I feel like I'm repeating myself. But, you know, the thing about listen to yourself. No one ever said that to me. I say the opposite of what anyone ever said to me.
I remember maybe the moment when my inner rebel kicked in was I had this teacher for a while who was a renowned international Beethoven specialist, so of course I was learning all the Beethoven sonatas. And there was one of them that I did not like, did not like it whatsoever, was playing it very badly. We’d go lesson after lesson, not getting better. And he was insisting that I had to learn it and I was thinking, Why? Why on earth? Beethoven does not care if I play this piece. And also maybe if you let me just walk away from this piece, maybe I have the chance to come back to it, you know, five or ten years later from now, and maybe things will be different.
But that was kind of the opposite of listen to yourself, right? So I think I just wanted that so badly for someone to like, say, what do you want? What do you want to learn? What do you want to do?
I should say I was home schooled in this very haphazard way. So on the one hand, as a young child, I was totally encouraged to like, explore what I wanted to and learn what I wanted to, and pull that book off the if you want to know what's in it.
And on the other hand, you're in this like straight and narrow classical music training where you know the answer is, because that's how we do it, that's how it was always done, or because I said so. So it was this very-- it was like kind of cognitive dissonance because I knew how to be curious and then I wasn't allowed to be curious.
Kellogg:
What kind of long-term strategy do you bring to career?
Downes:
I want to say something snarky, but it's not true. So I mean, I don't have a plan. I don't. And maybe it's good to have a plan. It was good to have like a five-year plan. I don't. I know what I'm doing tomorrow and I know what I'm doing pretty much for the rest of the year. But I also know-- I think there's a certain point in every project where I kind of see where it's going next.
It use-- That used to not be true. I only knew that in hindsight and now I kind of see, Oh, this is this piece of this. I bet I want to develop into a different direction later on. But what has given me the idea that there can be, maybe not a plan but a road, are some of the artists have collaborated with you are much older than I am. And I knew that what you need to do is stay curious and stay evolving and never, you know, be sure that you know exactly what you're doing.
Like you have again, you have to keep listening to yourself, right? And you have to keep letting yourself adapt and change direction and move and grow. And I've seen that in people who are in their seventies and eighties and it's beautiful. And I think we're so fortunate. This is the longest life that you can have in any occupation that I know of. Right? You might start your studies at four or five and you might still be doing this at 80. But that's a long road. So it had better be a winding one.
Kellogg:
Wow. I've never thought about that. That's absolutely right.
Kellogg:
What advice do you have for musicians when it comes to networking? And that could be both sort of online or in person.
Downes:
Well, I hate that word! Sorry.
Kellogg:
Is there a better word?
Downes:
I think about community-- Yeah, relationships and community, and I think that, you know, our world is so small. So I just think we need to build our community, you know, in a multifaceted way. Your colleagues, your peers, obviously, but also anyone who is listening, like I don't think I guess I don't think about my music as one directional. I really think about every interaction, a dialog, honestly, even when I'm on the stage and you know, you're not.
I feel like we're in some kind of a dialog together and I think, I know I can learn something from everyone. I mentioned that we were up at Saratoga Performing Arts this week with the Miró Quartet, and we were beginning a residency there and what we had was a few days to just work and, you know, look at rep and rehearse stuff. And one of the things we did was an open rehearsal for some supporters and a bunch of people came with first thing in the morning. It was like our first morning there. So we were really just finding our way with this project.
And so we were talking a lot to the to the audience. And at the end we had a talk back and everyone who was there had not just questions, but like thoughts and ideas and opinions about how we were rehearsing, you know, about the project itself. Because what we're doing - it's called Here on Earth our project - and it's a lot of pieces of music that relate to the earth and different perspectives on the earth.
So there's one woman said, Well, you're based at - the quartet, is based at - UT-Austin, have you thought about working with the geophysicists there? There were all kinds of ideas, and we walked away thinking that this is so valuable, you know? So do we call that networking? Do we call that like building out a bigger community?
Because now all of those people are so excited to come back to our concert in April. Plus they've shared, they feel, I think, you know--
Kellogg:
Part of the process.
Downes:
Yes. And it was so helpful for us. It's, yeah, So I look that everywhere.
Is there anybody I don't want to network with? Maybe the cranky people on YouTube, I don't want to network them.
Kellogg:
The online trolls!
Downes:
Yeah!
Kellogg:
What's your approach to the concept of branding as a musician? And what advice do you have for young musicians in determining how they want to share themselves with the world?
Downes:
Yes, I mean, am I allowed to say authenticity again? Because what else is there? And I think, again, lifetime process, right. But if you start to know who you are and build things based on that, then that builds also who you are changes. So you have to listen to those changes. I don't know, what is my brand? I don't know what it is. I mean, I do a lot of different things that seem to connect with each other. I know that I am a connector of ideas and people and maybe an expander of things. I think I know… Could we use purpose instead of brand?
Kellogg:.
Sure.
Downes:
Yeah, maybe that's the answer. And then, of course, that informs you. So that being the case, I know what I do and don't want to look like in photos. Right? I know how I do and don't want to be described. And also I know how I do and don't want my projects to be described. So then I feel like I'm called on to be part of that process. So I try to, again, stay connected to, for example, marketing teams at presenters, venues where I'm going. I kind of want to know how were you thinking you would tell this story and how can we work together to make sure that it's told in the best way possible? Because maybe you've received like a press kit, but then you might interpret that in another way, or you might once again say that Florence Price was the first black woman to ever have her music performed by a major symphony orchestra, which is great, but there's more to it than that. Do you know what I mean? I want to be involved with that process.
So I think it's just like, yeah, knowing yourself and knowing the purpose behind what you're doing and trying to help tell that story.
Kellogg:
Are they surprised to hear from you? The marketing department at a presenter?
Downes:
Oh, I'm the worst. I’m the worst!
Kellogg:
Oh, I don't mean that, I just mean is it common for a performer to reach out to them?
Downes:
No, it’s not! But we have a practice now with my, you know, with my management team. From the beginning. I want to be connected with the marketing team at a presenter-- not just marketing, but also certainly the education team and maybe the development team.
When you talk about networking or, you know, we talk about relationship, I don't want ever my relationship to be, she showed up on Thursday, she played on Friday, she went home on Saturday. I really always want to build something that involves education and you know, community building and that takes time and that takes collaboration. So really from the beginning we're talking about, what is the outcome we want and how do we you know back out from that date and build this thing?
And you talk about learning, I mean, that teaches me so much. Also, it teaches me about who that audience is and how do I craft my project, my program to best communicate with them and build a relationship with them? Yeah, it takes more time than showing up on Thursday, playing on Friday, going home on Saturday.
Kellogg:
I love that. I think our field will thrive the more and more they involve artists and the storytelling, and the marketing is driven from that sort of vision. It undoubtedly will be more work for the organizations until they get the rhythm of it. Do you connect that to a stronger experience at the concert?
Downes:
Oh yeah, for sure.
Kellogg:
More people there, more investment in what's on stage.
Downes:
Yeah. Yeah. I, you know, so again, back to Saratoga Performing Arts, which is such a beautiful destination, location, space, with this incredible because you know it's built in the ‘60s for the Philadelphia Orchestra for their summer home and also New York City Ballet, those two organizations together. So we were talking about marketing or messaging, whatever you want to call it, storytelling. And, you know, the burden of that has changed. It used to be that they could say, Come in the summer and hear the Philadelphia Orchestra! And that's not enough. So the story that we're crafting, the invitation that we're crafting, I think has to be multilayered and I do think that that takes collaboration with artists. How else?
Kellogg:
You've collaborated with artists, musicians, composers outside of classical music. What has that been like and what kind of opportunities have arisen from those interactions?
Downes:
It's been wildly expansive and I've learned more from those collaborations than from anything else. And again, you know, those collaborations were driven by projects that needed those voices, ideas, perspectives. And I think it's important to be humble and know what you know and what you don't know, and what you can do and what you can’t do. And what you can create to amplify an idea or like the seed of an idea.
I'll tell you, I guess one example, maybe two. But, you know, a collaboration that's really important to me is my friendship and collaboration with Rhiannon Giddens. And we met because I was invited to a concert in San Francisco, San Francisco Symphony. I think it was probably the first concert she'd ever done, like a Symphony Pops Concert. And so I was invited to this concert. I was sitting in the audience and here comes this woman. I wasn't like a huge bluegrass fan, so I didn't know Carolina Chocolate Drops. I really didn't know. And she was doing this set that was like pure Rhiannon, she was doing some Gershwin some spirituals, some of her own original stuff. And I'm watching this and I'm like, seeing that there is another being in the universe who's doing the same weird thing that I'm doing of excavating American music, obviously in a different space, but trying to draw these connections and telling these stories. And I found myself gripping the thigh of this gentleman who invited me to the concert. I did not know it very well was not appropriate, but I was just like, so it was it was like a it was like seeing yourself in a mirror.
And then we actually had a dinner afterwards and she and I sat together and we were just, you know, we couldn't stop talking about shared passions. And I was just about to head into the studio. I was doing this project for Sony, which was a Leonard Bernstein centennial album, and I had this song sitting that I wanted to do, which is called “So Pretty” – not “I Feel Pretty” but “So Pretty” - it’s this little Vietnam protest song that he wrote.
So we were talking about all this stuff, and I said, Do you want to sing a song? And she didn't know the song. And, you know, so I sent it to her and she was like, Oh my God, like, I didn't know this, and of course I want to do this song. And then we had to work really hard to find like some time and some place where we would be in the same time and place to record this song. But, you know, it wasn't that I knew I wanted to collaborate with Rhiannon Giddens. It was I met Rhiannon and then discovered this, this place where we intersect and there was a song waiting for her and, you know, and so that's given rise to years now of friendship and trying to collaborate when we can.
But I think, you know, for me a lot of the things that I do because I am working in this space of American music, which of course is coming from so many blended roots. So I'm always, there's always part of anything that I'm touching that belongs to another tradition. So for me, it's very natural to reach across that whatever. If there isn't, you know, some sort of artificial divide and say, Hey, can you bring your thing over here?
This week in town, I'm doing a collaboration with Christian McBride, because, you know, we, we've found our intersection point. And it's always there, and it changes the way I think about the music and the lens through which I see the music. And I think the way I play the music.
Kellogg:
That's great.